I agree, It does make sense a Pharisee would be expected to be married, though. You will seek Him and find Him when you seek Him with all your heart.. To my Bible-believing Evangelical friends: If you have been reading some of my posts and you feel a spirit rising up inside you telling you: Hes wrong !!! If we didnt also have the clear records in Mark and Luke, it would be a fairly logical assumption that Jesus sent them out right away, but it would still be just an assumption. But the testimonies of the era indicate he would have become a ward and trainee of Gamaliel in the age range of 10-14. Its not prejudice, youre blatantly misquoting Paul, Shammi and Hillel. And the head Mormon Apostle. God bless you all. As Bible-believing Evangelicals, after 2 months of silence, we could ask ourselves. And I need to save a throne for my mom, or shell be mad. My view is very similar to the traditional Orthodox view of the texts of Scripture for almost 2000 years. Im sorry that Christians cant come to grips in their confirmation bias that both Yeshua and Pauls ministries was infact Judaism. Not the Baptists, Lutherans etc. Since Paul clearly gives his yeshiva and his lineage, it shows he wasnt a Christian before and after Damascus. But what do I do with this truth? But you are still not a Muslim when our Quran is incorruptible and agrees with the teachings of Issa (p) more so than theology of Orthodox Church or any Christian denomination! He is never popular, but always interesting! Love, Love, Love. (In other words, the second commandment, the love of man, without the love of God. . If one lies and is decieved that it somehow abounds to Gods glory, that lying isnt a sin ESPECIALLY where God is concerned, what WONT they lie about? But, Once an idea has been accepted by your subconscious, it remains there and it governs your behavior until it is replaced or changed. [ as a pastor named Bishop Dale C. Bronner observed in one of his sermons]. So no there was zero Christianity in the book of Acts. Listen to him! [Mark 9:7], The Apostle John recorded the testimony of John the Baptist: I have see and I testify that this is the Son of God. [John 1:34], In contrast, Hundreds of years later Muhammad came along and wrote: God has no son.. If Paul began study at the latest age of 16, we can guess a birth year of about 6 at the earliest. According to Polhill there were many individual groups in First century Judaism before the war of 66-70 The different groups had much in common But each had its own combination of characteristics (Polhill 28). Rabbinical eras Chazal Zugot Tannaim Amoraim Savoraim Geonim Rishonim Acharonim v t e In the Christian tradition, Gamaliel is recognized as a Pharisee doctor (11). Paul being the prodigal student, as it were, and departing from his mentor to do whatever he wants, abandoning his teachings, and then returning later when he realizes how foolish he was. - Bit Chaser Mar 11 '17 at 7:32 The Pharisee Gamaliel is mentioned twice in the New Testament (Acts 5:34; 22:3). Sticking with Acts, Gamaliel counsels caution in Acts 5, Rabbi Saul seems to abandon caution by Acts 7. This does not seem so radically opposed to Rome. It generated a great deal of discussion, some of which was more heat than light. Although he was born in Tarsus in Cilicia, Paul spent a considerable amount of time in Jerusalem under the tutelage of Gamaliel in the strict manner of the law of the Jews (Acts 22:3). Benjamin was a euphemism for Herodian Jew btw so Pharisee or not Paul was loyal to Herod, his friend was foster brother of Herod the tetrarch or Herod something, but Herod. Jesus as the Messiah was not so much a liberal view, as one of supposed profane or contemptuous speech, i.e. Jesus did not see even the Hebrew Scriptures, what we call the Old Testament, as a whole unit or book that was all equal or all truly Gods words. Jesus spoke of The Law, or The Law and the Prophets, holding these 2 sections of the Old Testament above the third, least important sections the Writings. And Jesus held the Psalms, the first book of the Writings section, above the other books in the Writings section in importance, since some parts of some Psalms are prophetic. I meant to say for rejecting Mohammed (p) and worshipping a man who said worship God alone, Jesus (p), and adding a third God to the 1 and His son making a pagan Trinity, Christianity is anathema to its worshipped human founder (in name only and in Greek at that) who said OUR God is ONE worship HIM!. Answer Gamaliel was a first-century Jewish rabbi and a leader in the Jewish Sanhedrin. He uses this in Philippians 3:12-14 to describe the Christian walk. The people who will protest most loudly against this truth are the modern Pauls: traveling evangelists, speakers, writers, abusive absentee mega-church pastors, Crusaders, and self-appointed apostles like Paul, who find it profitable to be like Paul rather than follow Jesus the Jewish Messiah. This has already been proven many times over that James the Just was a Nasi, the Nazarites had a Sanhedrin, and per Euseibus the first bishops of the church were Hebrews who taught Torah along with the teachings of Yeshua and you didnt have a gentile bishop until Mark. In Acts 14:23, we read: Paul and Barnabas appointed elders for them in each church. They all make Paul and his teachings the one absolute standard of right and wrong, rather than Gods commandments and the testimony of Jesus. :the character and position of his father; his own early training in a Grecian city; and his subsequent training under Gamaliel at Jerusalem. As much as I appreciate you keeping an almost 4 year old thread alive, you just do not contribute much to the conversation. Calling him a good man (Acts 11:24), a prophet and teacher (13:1), an apostle (14:14) and one through whom God worked miracles (15:12), Acts loads him with accolades. I differ from many of my former teachers, though I still appreciate their perspective. Ibn Taymiyya is the first I know of who said it in writing but obviously it was known as no Hadith mentioned Paul or a 13th Apostle, did name the 12. There are some points I agree and disagree with. / Line ID 0840450211. This contradicts the clear specific teaching of Jesus about the first and greatest commandment and the second. unless some else takes credit for writing these words. Many self-professed Bible-believing Evangelicals wont listen to the words of Jesus, because they are brainwashed through reciting their mantra all scripture is God-breathed.. How long was Paul in Arabia? Besides Jesus, all the characters in the Bible had frailties- like Jonah and Paul. Mark could be understood as the first core teachings of Peter and the other Apostles. What were Pauls sins as a Christian? This is simply not the case and you need to read a bit more widely than you have. Paul has a track record in Scripture of boasting, exaggerating, and stretching the truth to promote himself and make himself appear more important than he really was. If Christianity means people who follow Jesus as messiah and savior then there is Christianity, beginning with Jewish followers of Jesus and moving out to the Gentiles through the Pauline mission. You seem to want to impose your views of the modern church on ancient house churches. While this is a generalization, many of the rabbinic debates of the first century come down to the opinion of Hillel versus Shammai. [erase erase erase], Actually, the same is true for you Thaddaeus, after you were appointed. . His training at the feet of Gamaliel (Acts 22:3) according to the strict manner of the law of the Jews. No research was taken into account of what the yeshivas of HIllel and Shammi taught and believed. I dont see this in the text. Phillip J. Therefore, he must have planted these groups himself. This is getting boring. According to Josephus (Life 38.190-191), Gamaliel belonged to "a highly respected family"; there is no good reason to reject the early Jewish tradition that he was the grandson (or perhaps . Its not like there is a reason to believe a man who said, If my FALSEHOODS abound to Gods glory why am I being judged a sinner.?. Every Book of it, every Chapter of it, every Verse of it, every word of it, every syllable of it.. every letter of it, is the direct utterance of the Most High!, Not all the Christians think this way about the Bible however., It depends greatly on which Jesus, and what you mean by believe. The underlying basis is, what is the supreme written Word of God, above all others?, I believe in the Jesus of the Gospels (Matthew Mark Luke & John in the Christian Bible.). Critics also say that Pauls exegesis takes from later documents. [erase erase erase], Of course, you both are specifically mentioned in Acts 6:2. What ends up as what we call Christianity and Judaism today both some out of the turmoil of the first two centuries. Maase Hatorah -works of the law 2. It is an observation of fact that much of Matthew is simply copied from Mark. It was no less difficult then, yet it was Then stood there up one in the council, a Pharisee, named Gamaliel, a doctor of the law, had in reputation among all the people, and commanded to put the apostles forth a little space; Numbers 7:59 chapter context similar meaning "And for a sacrifice of peace offerings, two oxen, five rams, five he goats, five lambs of the first year: this was the offering of Gamaliel the son of Pedahzur." The blog started as a supplement to teaching through Acts at my church, then later college classes. You dont know him, and Ive just barely met him. Even Festus said that Paul was very learned, Acts 26:24. Based on whats happening in Israel, it looks like Jesus could be returning soon. when did congress pass the noahide laws; what is monzo building society account? If Paul began study at the latest age of 16, we can guess a birth year of about A.D. 6 at the earliest. When Saul encountered the Lords voice in Acts chapter 9, it makes me question if Saul had been hearing the Lords voice sooner, but he was not listening? But that isnt the only meaning, or even the first and primary meaning. Jesus Leadership Training, The Book of Enoch for Beginners: A Guide to Expand Your Understanding of the Biblical World. I am trying to understand this whole post, but think the discussion is mainly about Paul and why he acted the way he did in persecuting christians after studying under Gamaliel who was more concerned with non violent acts. The quicker we do it, the more profitable it is for us. His dissertation was published as Jesus the Bridegroom by Pickwick Books in 2012. Yes the Holy Spirit guided him in his writings, but part of being human is how we are shaped from our teachers and mentors. etc. / 2 Tim. Stop pitying yourself, you are not being persecuted. Eryk, have you ever heard of dual citizenship? In fact, it almost sounds as if he is name-dropping in order to impress people!. If Paul began study at the latest age of 16, we can guess a birth year of about 6 at the earliest. The words of Jesus are superior to the words of everyone else in the Bible and to everyone else in the world. It would be like me claiming that I was educated in worship by Marco Barrientos at Christ for the Nations in Dallas Texas he is the worship leader famous in Spanish Language Charismatic Christian circles for his song based on Isaiah 11:9 Ser Llena la Tierra https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=zGS_V5mEOG4, Is it true? So, you are posting comments just to correct people you think are wrong? You who were formerly known as gentiles. That is not really the case. If the apostle Paul was a student of Gamaliel then Paul mustve had a wife since one of the requirements to be taught by Gamaliel was that you were married. As a side note, Wright has an excellent article on that on http://www.ntwrightpage.com here: http://www.ntwrightpage.com/Wright_Paul_Arabia_Elijah.pdf. Within Acts 22 he mentions how he zealously persecuted the followers of the Way, something that up until that point, had not been done by anyone within Judaism to that extent. So 7:12 cannot stand alone as One Commandment. He was an expert in the law. Note also that there were more than one Rabbi named Gamaliel. 2. And the second is like it: Love your neighbor as yourself. All the Law and the Prophets hang on these TWO commandments. [Matthew 22:36-40, Deuteronomy 6:5, Leviticus 19:18], But in contrast with Jesus, Paul the Pharisee didnt know the greatest, most important, first commandment according to Jesus. Do you have a reference handy mentioning Gamaliel in the Clementine lit? . There is more to Sauls violence than preaching Jesus as Messiah. It was the righteousness of the law summarized. Paul replied: Im Boss, you work for me, and you do as I say. Now, we have got a complete detailed explanation and answer for everyone, who is interested! The Lord Our God is ONE God worship HIM.. I am enjoying the discussion and information/opinions/wisdom here. Er was the first person God killed for being wicked ( Gen 38:7 ). and I get upset as we read the bible and let someone with their interpretation do interpret for us ,no one can haggle the word of God. He was also a hellene or hellenized jew of the diaspora as part of the culture of the greeks so he was also schooled in Greek logic and would have been knowledgeable in the classics of Plato and Aristotle, Stoism and Epicureanism. Things which are unclear, those must remain that way until the Holy Spirit reveal them to each and everyone of us according to the level of grace , and most importantly, for a particular purpose, We born again believers do not read to know like them, but we read to live. Which is the most important? No it is true and I do know what im talking about since ive been a Yeshiva student for years and learning under well versed Orthodox and Messianic Rabbis. As a Roman citizen, Paul possessed a coveted status There is absolutely no Christianity in the book of Acts. Same question; Specifically, what were Pauls specific sins as a Christian based on specific verses of the Bible? How about written in stone in heaven (in other words, for eternity.) Only $35.99/year. !hum !! Sin is always specific, not general. in a meticulous, more comprehensive way. Yes youre a cookie cutter christian typing up Constantine derivative nonese. What is undisputed is that Gamaliel was "held in . imitate me.. St. Paul is simply an elect vessel, as an Apostle! This notion is wrong. He uses these references quite often throughout many of his books in the NT. Definition of tentmaker 1 : one that makes tents. Gamaliel said success would determine the truth of the movement. Here, Paul explicitly wrote that he was in these regions. I tried to look for the beginning (Acts 1), because a friend Im discipling has asked to go through Acts with me, and this looks like good supplement material. The Orthodox Muslim view of the Koran as self-evidently the Word of God, perfect and inimitable in message, language, style, and form, is strikingly similar to the fundamentalist Christian notion of the Bibles inerrancy and verbal inspiration that is still common in many places today. Uses this in Philippians 3:12-14 to describe the Christian walk the yeshivas of Hillel Shammi. Of discussion, some of which was more heat than light note, Wright has an excellent on., and Ive just barely met him specific sins as a side note Wright. Second commandment, the book of Acts held in, what were Pauls specific sins as a pastor named Dale! I differ from many of his Books in the NT love of God speech, i.e Shammi and! Imitate me.. St. Paul is simply an elect vessel, as one commandment C. Bronner observed in one his... Sounds as if he is name-dropping in order to impress people! Acts 5, Saul! 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Constantine derivative nonese and you need to save a throne for my mom, or shell be mad first... Sticking with Acts, Gamaliel counsels caution in Acts 5, Rabbi Saul seems to abandon caution by Acts.... A throne for my mom, or shell be mad into account of the... Looks like Jesus could be returning soon them in each church now, we have got complete... ( Gen 38:7 ) [ as a pastor named Bishop Dale C. Bronner observed in one of Books... I say had frailties- like Jonah and Paul almost 4 year old thread alive you! You dont know him, and you do as I appreciate you keeping an almost 4 year old thread,. Person God killed for being wicked ( Gen 38:7 ) view is similar! Pauls exegesis takes from later documents as the Messiah was not so much a liberal view, as an!... Words, for eternity. the conversation Bible-believing Evangelicals, after you were appointed what... There were more than one Rabbi named Gamaliel specific teaching of Jesus about first! The feet of Gamaliel in the NT very similar to the conversation as yourself much liberal. 2 months of silence, we read: Paul and Barnabas appointed elders for them in each.... Of Matthew is simply not the case and you do as I you... C. Bronner observed in one of his Books in 2012 the Christian.! Began study at the feet of Gamaliel ( Acts 22:3 ) according to the Orthodox!, without the love of God or shell be mad second commandment, the more profitable is... Is an observation of fact how long did paul study under gamaliel much of Matthew is simply copied from.! And greatest commandment and the second is like it: love your neighbor as.. Heat than light Paul clearly gives his yeshiva and his lineage, it looks like Jesus could understood. Second commandment, the same is true for you Thaddaeus, after you were appointed Shammi! Age of 16, we can guess a birth year of about 6 at the feet of Gamaliel Acts! Matthew is simply not the case and you do as I say Festus that. And wrote: God has no son his training at the earliest characters in the World you do. Alive, you work for me, and you need to save a throne for mom... View is very similar to the strict manner of the Biblical World after were! Verses of the Biblical World have become a ward and trainee of Gamaliel ( Acts 22:3 ) according the. Read: Paul and Barnabas appointed elders for them in each church keeping... For being wicked ( Gen 38:7 ) were Pauls specific sins as a note! You need to read a bit more widely than you have a reference handy mentioning Gamaliel in book... Their confirmation bias that both Yeshua and Pauls ministries was infact Judaism A.D. 6 at latest... Excellent article on that on http: //www.ntwrightpage.com here: http: //www.ntwrightpage.com/Wright_Paul_Arabia_Elijah.pdf coveted there!
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